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  #4831 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2008, 08:03 AM
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Wow Ron, you're really missing the point!
The SS France is an unique piece of art, Not as it is now or benig the Norway. Just see any book of the best liners ever, and the SS France is in the first page in most of the cases....This would be a treasure for future generations...
Many people think like you, otherwise they wouldn't be scrapping the most beautiful liner ever built!!!
A good phrase for the ocassion:
"YOU DON'T REALLY KNOW YOURSELF, IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE DO YOU COME FROM".
(Anonimus)
  #4832 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2008, 08:10 AM
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By the way, Lets demolist the colisem in Rome, it is in terrible shape!!!!! Maybe you can raise the tallest building in Italy in that place....
Also let's demolish all the museums...they are full of OLD stuff!!!!An place car dealers on their places...
  #4833 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2008, 08:41 AM
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No, I think all of you are missing the point.. not such much Ron. Although I agree that the coke can reference was a bit too over the top....

IF the Eiffel Tower, the Statue of Liberty, the Capitol Building or the Chyrsler Building were commercial, money making ventures that were suddenly no longer commericially viable, you can bet they would be destroyed/re-cycled. If no one could rent an office in the Chrysler building because a fire gutted half the floors beyond repair or if the repairs were more costly then the demolish/rebuild there is no question that the building would come to an end.
ANYTHING built for the purpose of making money for its corporate owners that no longer is capable of doing so if going to be sold off. In this case the buyers are a scrap dealer. Could the Norway have been sold to an interest that could find a way to perserve her? Maybe. But there were plenty of opportunities for that to happen and it didn't. That tells me that there was no viable company/entity that could/would by the ship. To suggest that a company is hell bent on the distruction of a ship soley for the purpose of its distruction is the "argumentum ad absurdum". A corporation's only purpose is profit. The Norway was sold to the buyer that offered the most profit. That buyer then decided that the scrap value was more than any other offer after they had possesion.

You all keep looking at the offers to purchase the ship and wondering why Star didn't sell the ship to one of them because some of the offers, on the surface, were more than the scrap price. Well that could be true. But don't forget, the insurance claim that Star received was for a "totalled" vessel. Its quite possible that if they didn't scrap the ship they would have had to pay the insurance claim back. Thus making the offers too low.

Yes, th eNorway is a beautiful ship. Yes, I would love to see her saved, but that is not going to happen. She was not built for the purpose of being a piece of art, a national treasure or everlasting transportation device. She was built and designed as a unique piece of art to attract the wealthy traveller and to command a high profit. If she could still be profitable, the original owner/builder of the ship would not have sold her. If you are going to blame star cruises, then blame the original company as well. I'd say you should thank Star for giving her additional life span. If they hadn't bought her, she may have been scrapped a long time ago.
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  #4834 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2008, 10:17 AM
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Jim,
I agree with the logic of your argument. Makes perfect sense and I'm sure a lot of us deep down can't argue with what you say because it is simply the plain truth. Nevertheless, we humans have this ability to assign affection to inanimate objects and this is so very much the case for landmark buildings, aircraft and ships. Look at some of the steam engines that have been lovingly preserved, the fleet of Concorde aircraft - despite the fact that these mechanical creations from the past will probably not cover the cost of maintaining them as museums or as in the case of steam locomotives, funding small runs up and down a sideline, we still support them for what they represent. Such so is Le France. However, because of its sheer size, I can imagine trustees of a support group charged with managing its future finances (e.g. as a floating museum) would be waking up in the middle of the night in cold sweats forever more. The fact, as you point out, is that nobody in the end could find a way of ensuring that any funding that could be raised for keeping the ship intact, would be sustainable - despite our deep desires to save this ship - In essence, it's all down to money, whether trying to make money out of Le France or whether just trying to keep it in one piece and keeping it looking dignified even as a static display. As a display for the visiting public, you can imagine the costs of just making it safe, in this day and age of lawsuits. Plus, the report detailing the boiler explosion describes significant damage to the surrounding area of the boiler room, which to guys like me would me something I would have wanted to visit - there is nothing more awesome than visiting the engine room a huge ship - and making this safe even as a static display would undoubtedly have cost a lot. Then, the berthing costs - who would have been able to pay hundreds of thousands of Euros/Pounds/Dollars a year just to berth a static ship? That boiler explosion was truly a killer, in more ways that one.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jim C.:
No, I think all of you are missing the point.. not such much Ron. Although I agree that the coke can reference was a bit too over the top....

IF the Eiffel Tower, the Statue of Liberty, the Capitol Building or the Chyrsler Building were commercial, money making ventures that were suddenly no longer commericially viable, you can bet they would be destroyed/re-cycled. If no one could rent an office in the Chrysler building because a fire gutted half the floors beyond repair or if the repairs were more costly then the demolish/rebuild there is no question that the building would come to an end.
ANYTHING built for the purpose of making money for its corporate owners that no longer is capable of doing so if going to be sold off. In this case the buyers are a scrap dealer. Could the Norway have been sold to an interest that could find a way to perserve her? Maybe. But there were plenty of opportunities for that to happen and it didn't. That tells me that there was no viable company/entity that could/would by the ship. To suggest that a company is hell bent on the distruction of a ship soley for the purpose of its distruction is the "argumentum ad absurdum". A corporation's only purpose is profit. The Norway was sold to the buyer that offered the most profit. That buyer then decided that the scrap value was more than any other offer after they had possesion.

You all keep looking at the offers to purchase the ship and wondering why Star didn't sell the ship to one of them because some of the offers, on the surface, were more than the scrap price. Well that could be true. But don't forget, the insurance claim that Star received was for a "totalled" vessel. Its quite possible that if they didn't scrap the ship they would have had to pay the insurance claim back. Thus making the offers too low.

Yes, th eNorway is a beautiful ship. Yes, I would love to see her saved, but that is not going to happen. She was not built for the purpose of being a piece of art, a national treasure or everlasting transportation device. She was built and designed as a unique piece of art to attract the wealthy traveller and to command a high profit. If she could still be profitable, the original owner/builder of the ship would not have sold her. If you are going to blame star cruises, then blame the original company as well. I'd say you should thank Star for giving her additional life span. If they hadn't bought her, she may have been scrapped a long time ago.
  #4835 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2008, 10:45 AM
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I can accept that NORWAY's seagoing life was over. The end was approaching irrespective of what happened in Miami in 2003. When her future became uncertain many well-meaning fans of the ship invented schemes to prolong her life with some "modest" cash infusions; this was easily done; after all, none of them had to answer to boards of directors.

Ships are subject to more stresses than most other large creations. They wear out. When this happens, and if other uses cannot be found, they are usually sold for their scrap value. Shipping is a hard-nosed, unsentimental business. A ship that can no longer earn money for her owner is intolerable. In this light, NCL's desire to dispose of an aging, severely-damaged NORWAY was understandable.

I can also understand that there was less interest in an after-life for NORWAY than for QUEEN MARY. As FRANCE, she was mightily appreciated by those who knew her, but she only sailed for 12 years, and never quite assumed the iconic status of the QUEENS in the general public consciousness. And while many appreciated her as NORWAY, I suspect that a year later the vast majority of those who cruised on her didn't remember what ship they had sailed on. We know many people who can tell you when and where they've cruised, but can't remember much about the ships they were on. And there was no guarantee she would succeed as a static display/hotel. Look at the troubles the QUEEN MARY has had.

So, while I keenly regret the ship's fate, I can accept it, just as death is our own ultimate destiny. In this context I am happy that Knut Kloster saw fit to rescue her from the Quai de l'Oubli and give her another two decades. In the shipping business there is probably little new about the chicanery and end-runs around established law that has transpired, just that it's seldom been so public before.

All of this I can accept, with regret. What does surprise me is the callousness of the "Coke can" post. Given such contempt and disdain for the ship that is the subject of these pages,I wonder why that individual even bothers to post here.
  #4836 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2008, 12:24 AM
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It's just after midnight and I have received the latest images of BLUE LADY, showing that a good deal more "work" has been done on her topmost decks. The images are on my Midshipcentury home page (www.midshipcentury.com) and will likely be added to MaritimeMatters tomorrow when Martin receives them. I tend to agree that Mr. Mehta is doing his utmost to lighten the ship in order to get her further up the beach before he begins to demolish her hull. Normally, the bow and stern are among the first things to disappear.

Peter
  #4837 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2008, 02:05 AM
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Jim,

I do not agree with you that the existence of cultural and industrial memorials should be based on their profitability. And actually, at least over here in Europe, that is not the case with many memorials, which actually incur losses and do not make profits.
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  #4838 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2008, 05:16 AM
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Something I've always had in the back of my mind is that back in the 60's my Grandfather went on the France to New York on either the first or one of the very first crossings there. As an avid engineer himself, he got a tour round the engine rooms during the crossing by one of the technical crew. I distinctly remember him telling me upon his return "you know, the France has been designed with the option of refitting it with nuclear power" - Not sure where he got this information from but I'm wondering if anyone out there can support this claim, is it true that there was a design allowance for it to go nuclear? If only....
  #4839 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2008, 05:24 AM
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The latest picture is something. I don't know who mentioned it earlier this week but they're right. Before this is over you're going to see the France one more time. With the top decks being torn away you can now see her original shape coming back. Very interesting but yet very sad.
  #4840 (permalink)  
Old 01-21-2008, 06:21 AM
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Phil, regarding your question on nuclear power: according to a 1956 New York Times article (thus, written before construction had actually begun) the ship was to be designed to facilitate an "easy switch" to nuclear power.

I seem to recall that the large casings at the bases of the funnels were intended to provide access to the machinery spaces below, allowing for lifting out components and lowering new ones into place.
 
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